I like it because I interpret it differently than you do. To me the movie is about working hard to achieve your dreams while also pursuing other things that bring you joy. I don't think it says love is the only thing that can bring you happiness.

My overall opinions of Princess and the Frog have improved over the years, including my thoughts about Tiana, Naveen, and the music (although I still have some complaints about Facilier and think Ray is irritating) but the moral still angers me time and time again. The movie stresses over and over that anyone could come along and snatch the restaurant out from under Tiana's nose, and literally one day of missed work could cost her her dream. It was fantastic showing a woman working hard with no ties to any one, or any man, and she seemed to be happy doing it.
I never understand the insistence "he didn't have the place he always wanted but he had what he needed", Tiana never seems to show any lack of gratitude for her life-- it would make more sense if they showed Tiana being obsessed with her dream at the cost of being rude to or belittling others or not appreciating anything else she has, but they never demonstrate that in anyway. In fact, Tiana seems to seriously appreciate her parents so the movie just seems to be basically pulling some convulted moral out of thin air that Tiana needs to... what? have fun? find true love? It's just crap to pull that a woman can't just be happy with her restaurant, and I seriously hate when Tiana says
"My dream wouldn't be complete without you in it."
Why? She was happy with her dream before Naveen, but now they're saying her dream isn't as valuable without someone the movie is forcing her to share it with. A woman can't have an accomplishment in her own right without some man being attached?

Anyway, it seriously aggravates me.

@maidoforleans-- no, but it says that her dream can't make her completely happy on its own, she has to have **romantic*** love too.

^ Yeah, but to me just about every DP film says that. In some of them, the princess's only dream is to have a man, *coughSnowWhiteandAuroracough*, which is even worse imo. At least in TPatF Tiana has real ambitions outside of love.

I hate it for this reason. Because Tiana's moral says to me that "romantic love" IS BAD as a goal. TPATF just basically is the Feminist agenda on overdrive. What good is Naveen to Tiana? Basically, he's no good to her at all. He is the equivalent of "a fifth wheel" under the cart of her restaurant dream. Naveen is just "a hangers on." I HATE THAT.

Feminism isn't about putting down one sex to promote the other. It shouldn't be that. And I totally hate that the realistic business mindset "is now pushed into a fairy-tale" when it ABSOLUTELY ISN'T fairy-tale in the least! Is your work life a fairy-tale? Come on, now. IS IT? Because MY WORK LIFE SURE ISN'T. I don't sing about how everyone else around me is "taking the easy way." Tiana is addicted to her work, and to her restaurant. She doesn't really need Naveen, nor does she really love him. Her goal wasn't love in the first place!

So...TPATF turns me off, because Tiana is rude and mean to others who have different dreams than hers (which is exclusively focused on attaining the restaurant). And you cannot have it all. If you are actually a workaholic like Tiana--- i.e., Elon Musk--- you are ALONE. You steadily break up with people, because you are literally "being a pill" to everyone around you.

@maidoforleans--- the difference here is that this movie actually takes away an existing dream tiana has and REPLACES it with a man, and also, it's made in 2009, where we should be WAY past that. Snow White and Aurora never professed to be about anything other than romantic love. PATF actually shoots down the idea that a woman can be happy with her dream in her own right.

@princesslullaby I don't think it replaces her dream with a man. I think her dream evolves to include Naveen. She wouldn't have been truly happy if she'd ended up with just Naveen and not her restaurant. She worked her entire life for her restaurant, and it all would have gone to waste if she didn't get it in the end.

@wavesurf what are you even saying? that the movie says romantic love is bad as a goal? No, it doesn't, it literally says the opposite by inserting Naveen into Tiana's dream. What do you mean feminism on overdrive? How does this movie push down one gender or the other in that sense? If anything, it kinda shits on women. I think it would have been great if they kept Tiana alone. I Think it's terrible that society pushes people to get married as an end goal. I personally think marriage shouldn't be treated as so important, that it should be something people only do if they want to, not that everyone feels they have to do at some point, and that people shouldn't be treated as weird if they don't want to or just don't get married. I think it should happen way less often. Obviously society pushes marriage on us.

I mean this movie literally inserts a marriage and romance where it's not needed. if anything it glorifies romantic love.

@MaidofOrleans- that's my exact point -- why did they need to evolve her dream to include Naveen?! why couldn't they just have her have her dream without Naveen?! They literally made it so she wasn't as happy with her dream without Naveen, when she was perfectly find not having Naveen before!!

@Princesslullaby: Well, I differ from you. I think this movie "s---" on love. Romantic love in particular. It is unsatisfying for people who do want to find a companion.

I don't think this movie shits on women. It DOES GIVE women a very unhealthy, unrealistic life idea. That they can be entrepreneurs, focus mainly only on that, and still have a love life, too. Haha. NOPE. That won't ever happen.

As for people who are aromantic, TPATF movie doesn't even speak to them at all. Merida is more of the "aromantic" stuff.

@princesslullaby ah I see what you're saying now. Yeah I agree and I would've loved it if they'd kept Tiana alone, but unfortunately this is the DP franchise, where romantic love is pretty much the end-all-be-all of everything, so I guess I give it a pass simply for that fact. It's one of the reasons why I love Merida and Brave, because it's the one film in the franchise that allows her to be happy without a man.

I agree that marriage shouldn't be pushed as a primary goal for everyone, and it bothers me how prevalent it is in our society. I just don't think that TPatF is any more explicit about that goal than any of the other DP films (except Brave, of course).

WHAT wavesurf what kind of attitude is that!!! There are so many men who focus on business and still have a love life. My MOM, who is CEO of her company and an entrepreneur focuses on her job and STILL has a love life! I'm horrified to read your attitude. Love is about people working
together.
@MaidofOrleans-- Being the DP franchise isn't an excuse. Mulan also is allowed to be happy and has her crowning moment COMPLETELY WITHOUT SHANG. That's something I wouldn't have minded. Mulan saves the emperor, saves China, has a great moment with her father, and does it all with very little involvement from Shang. It's all just focused on Mulan. So yes, it can and HAS been done, BEFORE patf came out.

@wavesurf-- like your comment has me shocked. In what way does the film shit on romantic love? And in what way can a woman be successful in a career and NOT also have love? And anyway, Tiana didn't WANT love while she was looking for a career. And once she got her restaurant, then she shared it with NAveen, it shows they worked together.
If you're sad because it didn't do that, then you have 10 other princess movies to choose from about finding true love.

@princesslullaby true, I didn't think of it like that. My issue with Mulan is mostly the shoehorned romance with Shang that they slip in in the last five minutes. I reeeaaally wish they hadn't done that.

My apologies, I think I worded my previous response wrong. I give TPatF a pass for being in the DP franchise, but I critique the franchise as a whole. Does that make sense? I love it within the context of the DP franchise, with the knowledge that romantic love is something I will be forced to take with the movie. I critique the DP franchise as a whole for pushing the moral that romantic, heteronormative love is something that should be a primary goal for women.

@Princeslullaby: Well, your mom probably is the exception, not the rule from what I have seen in my own experience. And so... The movie "La La Land" basically describes what I think when people become so "ensconced" in their entrepreneurship, that they forget to be nice. They start being jealous and mean.

And I do see parts of that same stuff in TPATF.

In Mulan, that was a " a take the romance, or leave the romance" option. At least, Mulan decided that she DIDN'T want to become so close to the Emperor/CEO. At least, Mulan knew her own mind on becoming greedy for more and more status/power.

@wavesurf- you really see tiana acting like that BEFORE she turns into a frog? After a frog, yes, maybe a little mean (but not jealous) but mostly it's because she's mad at Naveen for turning her into a frog.

I'm not sure what you mean about Mulan. It's not that she didn't want to become close to the emperor or it's that she didn't care about power. It's that she missed her family, plain and simple, and wanted to see them.

@MaidofOrleans- I can understand about the romance with Shang, especially ending the note on that. (also her weird kissing of mushu on the cheek, I can't really see Mulan doing that)
I don't so much mind romance being forced as long as it's an ACTIVE choice by the princess instead of her being shoehorned into it. This is why I don't really have an issue with Ariel going after Eric because that's her prerogrative (and actually the way that romance is portrayed in that movie is pretty progressive-- the girl is the pursuer, the boy is the passive one in that sense, the girl actively chooses it instead of being forced into the man's narrative like a lot of other Disney Princess films). However, I can agree that it would be great if Disney would steer clear of the romances for awhile. In that sense, Merida is the polar opposite of Tiana-- While Tiana has a goal in mind and then is forced into the male narrative and a romance, Brave is about a woman being forced into a romance who then gets herself OUT of it so she can find her goals and have her freedom and independence and it ends with that. Almost a reversal of stories--- and I absolutely LOVE brave and merida as well. :)

sorry to make separate posts, for some reason fanpop and my computer mouse aren't cooperating and it won't let me edit . yes, absolutely agree they need to stop adding romances. it felt forced into frozen, patf, Mulan, etc. glad that moana didn't have it but I wasn't a fan of moana because it still had to have her surrounded by male sidekicks :/

@princesslullaby ah yes I totally agree that TLM has a progressive female driven romance! I've met very few people before who agree with me on that. :) I also agree that most of the DP romances are annoyingly shoehorned into the film, including TPatF. Nice to find another person who likes Merida on here! She's seriously underrated imo.

@Pirncesslullaby: I slightly disagree with you about Mulan. Mulan missed her parents, yes, but she went into the army to "find self-worth" not to "get a job" or "achieve status." So she didn't want Li Fu's job, and refused it on the grounds of that.

And, yes, I do see Tiana acting overly self-righteous and judgemental BEFORE Naveen mistakenly kisses her, turning her into an amphibian.

@MaidofOrleans- Merida is amazing. I think she might have been my favorite if I didn't grow up with the renaissance girls.

balance and swallowing your pride and learning from other people - those are excellent morals, and even better because the heroine also has to learn them.

As I said before, I'm not too fond with moral message from this movie. And somehow the movie seems confusing to determine what message they want to show to the audiences.
Yeah, at first we were know Tiana have strong vision, being hardworking and ambitious with her dream. It's actually a good thing, but unfortunately I can't like her. After she met the frog Naveen and have a deal to kiss him, then I feel that she seems so greedy and replace her vision with a man, as Naveen offered help to her to make her dreams come true--with money of course. It already show how the movie says her dream isn't complete without a guy,

And I have to agree with Princesslullaby, especially when she said "My dream wouldn't be complete without you in it." I don't get it, how? Her dream is almost complete, and she said that she needs Naveen, that she just met in several days, to complete her dreams? And Naveen never did anything good with Tiana.
This makes me way more sure that they tried to show that all of her works just means nothing without romance love with a guy. It's just confusing me, as Tiana is shown to not care with any kind of romance before.
The problem with PATF is when everyone expect Tiana to be a different kind of woman that achieve her dream with her own, this movie just successfully 'broke' the expectations.

What the hell @wavesurf? I agree with your first comment, but your attitude towards others are just being so annoying. Almost everyone here know about your disliking towards PATF, but seriously you're just going too far. You have to be nasty and salty towards things you dislike? That's just not a good way to do.

"It DOES GIVE women a very unhealthy, unrealistic life idea. That they can be entrepreneurs, focus mainly only on that, and still have a love life, too. Haha. NOPE. That won't ever happen."

"@Princeslullaby: Well, your mom probably is the exception, not the rule from what I have seen in my own experience."

Wow, I'm pretty shocked with an unspoken rule you tried to say, that a successfull entrepreneurs are NOT supposed to have love life. *claps*
Judging other people's life just based from your own experience? Congratulations, you just PROVE to us how NARROW-MINDED you are. Lmao.

@MaidofOrleans and @Princesslullaby: Hey, glad to finding other peoples here who love Merida! I love her too and seriously she's way too underrated and misunderstood here. I though I am the only one who loves her here.

@Sparklefairy: And most of whatever you say is not annoying to others? There you go again, with your "extended dumping upon me." I am not narrow-minded. I have watched at least three marriages end in divorce, and the marriages were supposedly "among equals" who had their own entrepreneurial careers. What actually happened was EXACTLY what happened in "La La Land." As soon as one partner started being more successful than the other--- jealousy warped the relationship to the point where there was no relationship anymore. Entrepreneurship is tricky to keep with a healthy relationship. Ultra-competitiveness definitely exists.

I am not going to have an identical experience to princesslullaby's mother. I don't have to have the same opinion as the rest of you all.

I am not narrow-minded at all. You can go laugh in the back, somewhere, Sparklefairy. Most of our conversations only feature you MOCKING ME. You attacked me over simply posting a poll on here, too. That was LAME. If you can't say anything that's civil, then just back off.

if jealousy warped the relationship, that's on the partner that became so insecure about their other partner being successful, not the person who is the entrepreneur. that's immature and egotistical of the first partner, and it has nothing to do with the entrepreneur, who did nothing wrong. They will find love. I sort of agree with sparklefairy, and wave surf, there is no proof either way that Mulan didn't want power. only in that moment, she wanted to go home. she definitely had an ego to prove. she even admits she did it for herself really, not fully for her dad. but that's a different argument. I know lots of successful relationships with powerful career women, as long as the husband doesn't have an ego, it will easily work. but often, men have ego problems. it's just a fact.
wavesurf, you sound jaded and almost as if you think women can't be successful AND have romance, so they have to pick one or the other. it's offensive thinking.

^I'm sorry you find my experience on this subject offensive. However, I disagree with you on this subject. Both men and women can be equally egocentric, and both are capable of being ultra-competitive, and EITHER GENDER is capable of sinking/destroying the relationship by being insecure. That's simply how I see it.

I do think it's less likely that women are both successful AND have romance. And it's because of society, and also misogyny, more than anything else.

you just contradicted yourself so I guess that ends this discussion

I pretty much agree with what UnholyNoise said. And even as an asexual aromatic person I never found it offensive or felt like they were telling me that I was “no good without a guy”.

@princesslullaby: Whatever. I still don't believe TPATF's message: "that you can have it all."

I like it quite a bit. It comes with two parts: Work hard to achieve your dreams, but don't let your dreams distract from what is needed in life, which is love and happiness. Tiana looked fairly happy but wasn't allowing much love into her life. It doesn't need to be romantic either; I never felt that her dream was only completed once she had a romantic interest. But once she met Naveen, she realized that this was the fun, particularly enjoyable side of life she was missing out on.