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Arwen's moment por the bedside of dying Uther.
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MISAforever and EPaws like this
EPaws ...
HumbleQueen Okay. A little while ago I posted this pic on my Tumblr and had a few positive comments:
http://horace-maggie.tumblr.com/post/11500346807/i-know-we-havent-had-a-lot-by-way-of-romantic
I didn't realize Arwen fans were upset about Gwen's reaction to Arthur's grief when I did it. For some reason, each time I watched this scene I wasn't upset by it, but rather liked it for the reasons I said in the post. But now I better understand where others are coming from. I suppose a hug or something would have made it better; still not sure. The scene when they were standing there when he had just died though, that's when I wish she had touched him or something. Still for some reason, neither of these scenes hit me in a bad way until I read what others were saying and thought "Hmmmmm." Not sure. Need to process further.
Now, something else under a bit of discussion at tv.com was that some folks thought Arthur a bit insensitive to say to her the bit about not letting his father die, without acknowledging the heartache she'd already had over her own father's death at the hands of Uther. They said this could have been a point of tension at the moment, but they read the scene that instead of tension that it went all lovey dovey. Somebody thought she was about to say something along those lines, but changed her mind. Personally, I thought it went just right. Must have been hard for her tho.
EPaws What I do respect from the scene was his acknowledgement of the 'kindness' for want of better words to the ingrate in the bed.
Thayzee The fact that Arthur acknowledges Gwen was awesome, but I wanted more... I must say I was very, very disappointed of the lack of affection and interaction between them...
kbrand5333 Would have been nice for her to have reached out for his hand (mirroring the end of last ep) at the scene where Uther is dead. I'm willing to go with the theory that since they're still on the DL, they hold back. Even in front of people who already know about them. Oh well. I remain hopeful for the future.
Bonne-Bell I'm disappointed too, Thayzee. They couldn't even give us one quick Arwen comfort scene. I would have even been happy with a 3 second hug scene like in 3X05.
kbrand5333 Oh, and I do think that some people read into things WAY more than necessary. No one here, of course, but others that are always looking for hidden meanings where there are none.
HumbleQueen Yes, Thayzee. That seems to be the general consensus. Guess I'm in the minority. Won't be the first time, LOL. Or last.
It's really neat how different folks see things in various ways. Being the hopeless romantic that I am, I'm surprised I was satisfied with the lack of physical contact. I 've been focusing on what I see as a connection through the pain that was there without the physical. Also, I had this keen sense at the end of the scene that she didn't know WHAT to do for some reason, like something was holding her back. I mean, even though there was this sense of mutual togetherness at that moment, I hope there hasn't been a bit of a distance arising from the Lancelot thing. No, probably not. They would have found a way to let that be more clear. The writers I mean. But I keep picking up this hesitancy on her part at the end. I don't know, maybe it's just me.
For me, I'm not sure what left me a little flat. I think perhaps on my part I wasn't expecting anything Arwen but was expecting to be wowed with the Uther death and wasn't. Bradley certainly was great; Colin was great so it wasn't that.. Maybe it was a matter of expectation and I thought the end was rushed. I felt like the coronation was too quick and we should have been allowed to see so much more.
kbrand5333 Nanna, I also got the impression that she didn't quite know what to say. She opened her mouth at the end of their scene like she was about to say something, but stopped. I think she just didn't have the words.
HumbleQueen Right, Kim. That's what I mean.
I just thought of this: but perhaps they didn't want the heavy Merthur episode tainted by anything too romantic between the Arwen couple, lol. It always takes away from everything else when these too get too close, you know. *wink*
Having said that, It was a beautiful Arthur/Merlin episode, with the focus on Merlin IMO. That's another complaint people have. They think it should have focused on Arthur because it was his father. Oh well, it's interesting seeing all the different views..
kbrand5333 Show's called "Merlin." Much as we love our Bradley/Arthur (and Arwen), we have to remember that sometimes.
And there were some really beautiful Arthur/Merlin moments. I commented on it elsewhere.
MISAforever The silent moments between Arwen rocked this episode.
whatthe311 I liked the scene. But i would be lying if i said i wasn't expecting more. Perhaps not in this particular scene, but, Maybe after Uther was confirmed dead. Idk maybe im just greedy for ArWen......
kbrand5333 Arwen is our heroin. We are all addicted.
EPaws That and Jalapeno Miss Vickie's (2 cups) and chilled Hipnotiq while watching Merlin. LOL! That is my guilty pleasure.
EPaws Don't apologize Whatthe311, you are perfectly right Mr. O dropped the ball by not dropping in 2 minutes of ARWEN. Complete lack of continuity with respect to characterization.
HumbleQueen Yes, I agree. It was Mr. Overman who is at fault.
HumbleQueen Ok, Stacey, I read your dissertation on Tumblr and it's right on. I couldn't explain what was wrong with me with this episode and you captured the feelings I couldn't express for some reason. And yeah, if she'd reached over and touched him here it would have made it better. How many more episodes does Overman have I wonder.
Seriously though. Thanks. This was very insightful.
http://elegantpaws.tumblr.com/post/11541088585/someone-rather-clever-and-insightful-made-the
lv2rt Okay, well I've had time to think about this episode and well I think I'm finally understanding where I have the problem with it. But first I want to say that this is not to say anyone that doesn't feel the same way is wrong. I try to be very respectful of other's opinions and I only request that others do that same for me.
That being said, I may be guilty of mentally rewritting the episodes and when they don't go the way I expect it leaves me disappointed or unimpressed. That's not fair but the truth for me is that I'm feeling that there are just too many missed opportunities. I didn't expect much before the end of season 3 but after that I expected to see these two moving much closer. I'm not saying they have to jump into bed together but I did expect to see more tenderness and more hugging, kissing and gentle sweet moments. I know that there will be angst, love it but to create a loving relationship I believe the writers are way below standard.
Here are the problems I'm seeing with 4X03 episode where Arwen is concerned.
1) I would have expected that Gwen would be sitting somewhere near Arthur at his party. Ok maybe not right next to him but she would have at least been sitting. What I couldn't even see was where she was in relationship to Arthur at all. In fact it looked like she was standing and possibly serving. With her new role as Uther's "nurse" I would think that she would have been sitting somewhere and not serving.
2) While I liked the scene with Arthur and Uther when Uther first was stabbed, I kept thinking where is Gwen? She is working for Uther and helping him. It would have been a perfect opportunity for her to have walked in just to assist Uther and find them on the floor, ran over to them then run out to find Gaius. It just seems as if her part in this episode was cuttailed for no reason. The obviousness of her place in Arthur and Uther's life was ignored for some reason.
3) HQ I know you have discussed this so I'm adding my two cents here. The short interaction with Arthur and Gwen seemed incomplete and in my opinion another greatly missed opportunity. Arthur needed comfort and the writting didn't allow for that from Gwen. We have already seen them interact in front of Uther so what's the problem here?
It was necessary for Gwen to emotionally comfort Arthur in words more than deeds but that wasn't what we were given. There was no "I understand" or "I will always be here for you" or even a "thank you Arthur, I want nothing more than for you to be happy so I do this for you". Something that will make the scene the tender moment it should have been. Instead we get another "I do it for you." For me it was as if she's saying she expected something from Arthur in return and for me I feel that's something Gwen wouldn't say. It just struck me as pulling all the care out of their moment. In fact, Gwen didn't even smile at Arthur but her facial expression seemed very uncomfortable as if she didn't even want to hear him say thank you. Thus the scene came off cool and distant.
4) Now the scene at Uther's bedside when he died but it was a scene that again missed an opportunity to reinforce her role in Arthur and therefore Uther's life. She was there and it would have been great if I felt like she was a part of the family at the king's bedside but that wasn't what I felt. It was like she had no relationship with Arthur and in fact waiting to clean up what needed to be removed. There needed to be one touch from her to Arthur's shoulder or his arm or his hand. Something that showed her care for his lost. He did at least try to comfort her when her father was killed and now that they are both without parents they have that in common that not even Merlin has.
5) Arthur is sitting in his room alone waiting to be summoned to view his father's body. WHAT? Never has Arthur been in his room upset about something that Gwen has not knocked on his door and offered advice, comfort or reassurance that everything will be okay. He needed to hear that from her and the writers completely missed the mark on that. Morgana is gone, Uther is gone and the writers didn't write in Gwen's reassurance that he will be the great king speech. This moment was the one that he needed her reassurance and comfort the most and it was completely ignored by the writers.
6) Arthur is in the hall all night with Uther and Gwen is no where to be seen. WHAT THE HELL. She doesn't come down the hall, she doesn't sit with Merlin and Gaius, she's not even waiting outside at the door? REALLY? When Arthur was in the hall in his bare feet and that white robe all night before his quest, Gwen was there with Merlin peeking into the hall and asking Merlin was he was doing? That wasn't half as important as this. And yet we don't see Gwen anywhere? What happened? What in the world could have kept her away? It's completely out of character and a glaringly missed opportunity. For me it's a clear statement that there is something wrong with this here.
7) Lastly, Arthur walks out after being in the room all night and the only one there is Merlin which is a great scene but Merlin and Arthur's words really hit me hard. Arthur's states something like "have you been here all night?" and Merlin states "I didn't want you to be alone." What? Why is he alone, indeed. Then Arthur states, "Merlin you are a loyal friend." What is going on here? Is this scene telling us that Gwen is not a loyal friend and only Merlin was able to realize that he need reassurance that someone cared about him? What are the writers trying to tell us? This is not just an idle scene. It's clear that they don't do idle scenes. There is meaning behind this and I don't like what it seems to be saying.
Again, I'm not trying to cause discord but there is something going on here that I don't like. To be blunt, if they are trying to create distance between them then what's with the big tender moment the first episode? What's with the hand holding during the last episode? What gets me is you don't create distance that way. Bloom...no contact at the most important events such as a death of a parent. There are other ways but with Arthur and Gwen I've noticed that the writers have always been very lazy when it comes to their relationship. They don't put the effort into it. And it makes it very difficult to fully root for them for me because there always seems to be something missing. I can't trust in the writing for them. I can't really tell what the writers are showing us in their regard. But the thing about this is they know how to do, but they are not for Arwen.
It's my hope that whereever they go with this we will still have Arthur and Gwen. Lancelot is great but there's no potential for a satisfying relationship for me with them. If they really made it a relationship that showed deep love between them I could root for Gwen and Lancelot. But I can't because it's more lacking then Arthur and Gwen.
So here I am really not being able to get the enjoyment of the show when soemthing is off. Something is wrong and it doesn't really have to do with Gwen and Arthur but the fact that in either relationship Gwen and Lancelot and Arthur and Gwen, it's just leaves me feeling uncomfortable. There is absolutely not need to reduce Arthur and Gwen's relationship to beef up Arhtur and Merlin's relationship. Either relationship should be reduced for the other. There's no need for that but unfortunately it seems that's what they are doing.
Sorry for the long post and thanks for letting me get it off my chest. I am tired so I'm getting off now but I will be back tomorrow hopeful, so that I can correct typos.
HumbleQueen Linda. I just now read this as I'm just getting online with Merlin stuff. Your comment is amazing. I have to digest and process it and will be back with my own thoughts. I felt I needed to respond right away, but I'll be back later.
lv2rt Thank you so much HQ. I think I need a hug. :).
I'm hoping I'm just reading into this too much. I'm pulled back a bit and trying to let all this reduce to being much less important in my mind. It is a children's TV show and for me I need to make sure it has that much significance in my life. I hope for better writing each season and unfornately I really feel that's not what happening here.
I'm looking forward to your comments.
HumbleQueen I've had so many off and on thoughts concerning this whole thing and I've been reading so many different perspectives about everything that I don't know where to begin.
Honestly. I'm perplexed. Well, I'm going to try to address some of what you've said, Linda, but your comment is so mind boggling and there's so much depth to it, and my state of mind is such I know I can't do it justice. Some of the things you've said I noticed already. Some are new thoughts. Let me try point by point.
1. I noticed this and felt the same. While her reactions to the knife throwing were cute, and helped make it up for me, all the rest of what you said is more than valid.
2. Also, we saw almost nothing of Uther and Gwen and their relationship. I'm sure I know why here. The writers did not want to take away from that Arthur/Uther moment. They wanted to focus solely on the emotional impact of Arthur's grief and hearing his father's words to him. I sort of understand that one, I guess. But even running in and seeing what happened and run for Gaius would have given her a part in it, yes. [EDIT: After further thought on this one. This happened very late at night because they were about to go to bed right? Is it possible we were to assume she went home? Wouldn't Gaius help him to bed late at night? Giving benefit of doubt here.]
3. I still am okay with this scene for the most part. I wouldn't have been troubled by a hand on his arm or something, but I'm not too upset with this one, as you already know. This scene was discussed at an Arwen community on LJ and the general consensus there is in favor of the scene. I'll share one of the comments: -
"The convo between Arthur & Gwen while she was tending to Uther. There was so much understated, subtle, nuanced acting I almost squeed despite the dark tone. I love how Arthur was sure to show his gratitude - leaps and bounds of growth from the boy in S2 that expected servants to do things and that they lived for it - and how Gwen instantly knew that his heart was breaking. Perfect example of nuanced acting by Bradley; when Gwen told him that she tends Uther for his sake, and Arthur gives a tiny smile, but can't bring himself to let it complete because of his worry. PERFECTLY done! I love that there was intimacy in that scene without the two of them getting sappy or taking away from the gravity of Uther's condition. Brilliantly executed, bravo kiddies!"
Most folks felt that she started to move towards him and decided against it, feeling it was not the best for the moment.
4. Now this one I just don't know what to think. The way they were just standing there. I didn't focus too much on Arwen because I was SO disappointed in Gaius. Something was just not right about his reaction to Uther's death. But yes, would it have been too much to ask to have Gwen even just lean her head on Arthur rather than just stand there like that. That would be so much more realistic if there relationship is what it's supposed to be. I think here that good directing would have noticed that. I know, should it worry us? Are they trying to establish something without actually saying it? Are they establishing some kind of unspoken distance between the two? You're right. I think perhaps we could be a bit disappointed that she has not come up in the world more than she has. I'm not totally sure how I feel about that yet.
6. Someone mentioned this somewhere but came to the conclusion that she had presumedly gone home by then. It was late, but that takes us to the next one...
7. This is the one that got me. I thought it at the time and pushed it out of my mind. It should have been her there. If she is his future bride and the love of his life, she should have been there with him, comforting him, while he was waiting and outside the door while he was with his dead father. But it couldn't be, you see. This was an Arthur and Merlin episode, so they couldn't have that. I understand that the focus is that and this is "Merlin". Indeed, it's the focus of the series, But I agree with you that the two relationships do not need to me mutually exclusive, so to speak. Arthur can have both in his life at the same time, in fact, he should, and it should not be difficult for professional writers to find ways to show that both Gwen and Merlin love Arthur and are there for him, and to do so in a single episode. Her parts in his life could be fewer in screen time minutes, but they should not be showing up nonexistent no matter what the episode emphasis is.
It's the writers, Linda. There have been little things I've noticed for a while. We're feeling it more now because of what the relationship is SUPPOSED to be in S4.
They have a way of ignoring whatever does not serve the purpose of the plot line of a particular episode. For example, there was something that ate at me in episode 3x06. Remember when Merlin was trying to rid Princess Elena of the fairy, or whatever that was, before Arthur married her? Did it bother you that Merlin, president of the Arwen fan club, never mentioned Gwen as a reason for his being concerned about the arranged marriage? He never showed any compassion for Gwen, but instead he and Gaius (who also knew about Arwen at the time) spent the entire time focusing on getting the princess "right" to be Arthur's wife. In fact, when Merlin brought Arthur his ceremonial sword and he found Arthur in such distress, he said "What's wrong?" I was so angry! WHAT'S WRONG?" Merlin of all people should never have had to ask such a question. That was SO unrealistic. I thought that was one of the dumbest pieces of writing I have EVER seen. And that is just one example.
Sorry. Don't mean to be upset, but yes. I agree with you and I'm trying to be hopeful because thank goodness I've seen trailers and spoiler pictures which help a lot. I am hoping, crossing my fingers, trusting, expecting THAT IT WILL GET BETTER.
Thank you, Linda, and I would even suggest you copy/paste your comment as an opinion so others can respond. And yes, I go through the same thing. Sometimes talking myself out of getting too upset and intense about a tv program, a kid's one at that, lol. Especially at my age. But I think I'm too far gone now.
EPaws Brilliant, Linda. Absolutely brilliant. The epic mysogeny displayed in this series continues cause that is the core issue here.
lv2rt Thank you Epaws and HQ YES!!! I completely agree. That scene with Merlin and Arthur about Elena hit me as well. I was wondering more that Gaius and Merlin was trying to help Elena not so much that she could marry Arthur but to stop the She's (I think that's what they wre called). But you're right now that I think about it the writing here just didn't make sense and it reduced the depth of the relationship between Arthur and Gwen. I also think it should have been a two parter that included Arthur's proposal to Gwen and then add 3X10 and maybe a reset of that's what they wanted to do. That would have intensified both episodes. But I'm really not very hopeful for this season now. For me there is no need to exclude on relationship for the other and really I'm not looking forward to what we will be getting.
I'm sorry for replying so late. I've been very sick.
HumbleQueen Hope you're better, Linda! Thanks for your in depth comment. We've all been buzzing about this thing and holding our collective breaths that it will come out okay for the rest of the season.
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