I'm all for movies showing strong women but the way Disney is doing it is so backwards. In the remakes they're making the princesses more "independent" and then talk trash about the original princesses despite the fact that the original princesses are icons on their own

These current films aren't as creative, subversive and revolutionary as the writers think they are.

And honestly their attempts at improving on the "typical problematic" princess movie create these strange contradictions.

For example "Merida don't need no man to rescue her" but...she still needs her mom to rescue her a lot. (and she needs rescuing more often any other princess by the way) So....yay?

*eyeroll*

So...is there really any point in me explaining for the zillion time why Disney pisses me off more than they excite me, these days?

I don't think the older princesses (before their remakes) were a set of "weak" women who were "dependent on men." Asking me to love the remakes, and the Revival Era, is like asking me to completely turn my back on the movies I watched as a kid.

That would be a betrayal. And I am loyal. Hate me for being loyal, then.

For reals! Disney and Pixar just had Merida get saved by her mom several times and they still bragged about having a princess who didn't have a man save her.

I always love the idea of a story having a female lead who can save herself but not in a way that looks down on female leads who can't.

I remember I did a poll months ago asking if people would like a princess who saved herself or didn't have a man save her but some people didn't completely understand the question I was trying to ask. Most of them said no and said something like how it shouldn't matter if it's a guy saving her or herself. Like, yeah it shouldn't matter but how about a princess that Disney says doesn't need a man to rescue her and then doesn't need to constantly be rescued by someone else?

I love the princesses, do not get me wrong, but we don't have that many in the lineup who actually save themselves, they need someone else to help them. Heck, Jasmine was originally written to save herself in the hourglass but then was changed at the last second for some reason.

@wavesurf I think the only revival princess who is the best representation of Disney or princesses in general (not as in better than the old princesses, but almost just as good) is Rapunzel

If Disney didn't try so hard to be progressive or create characters and say "This princess is better because [insert lame reason here]" then maybe they'd make decent female leads again like they used to.

^And since when is receiving help from someone else ( male or otherwise), considered to be "a deep flaw" and a weakness for the character, and WRONG? Does every female protag have to be a complete super-heroine? Even Wonder Woman and Xena Warrior Princess got help from their friends (yes, they had both male and female friends).

Mulan is full of Mulan helping and then being helped, by her male army buddies. wtf.

Sigh.

@BB2010: Yeah. Only Punzie seems to be untainted by the "I'm not a princess" slogan, and the "I don't need any kinda help from anybody" slogan.

And I think the reason she didn't get the "I'm not a princess" line was because she really was a princess and it "wouldn't have worked"

I didn't mind the "I'm not a princess" joke in Moana because it felt like a harmless joke Disney just played on itself but thinking about it now that line probably should have been used in a different movie. I know Moana said herself that just because she's the daughter of the village chief it's not the same as being a princess after Maui said it was the same thing but what I don't get is how is it Maui lived thousands of years actually thinking that because you're related to a Chief that equals royalty only for someone actually related to a Chief to say that's not how it works? If she was talking to a child who didn't know better then, yeah that would make more sense but to an immortal demi god? Doesn't make sense

^Yeah. That was a pretty big loophole. An oxymoron.

In general I think that companies shouldn't push a certain political agenda all the time. I mean I'm fine with politics being in shows and movies and what not, but I think that these days companies like Disney are relying on the way too much. Like the use it as a way to be lazy. They know that people want things like LGBT rep and so they toss an LGBT character in and use that as the sole appeal of their content rather than trying to create quality and creative content.

I don't have a problem with feminism and a lot of the people complaining about movies being too feminist nowadays come off as those dudebros who complain about films like Wonder Woman or She-Ra having a less sexy outfit.

That being said, some of the faux "girl-power" stuff and Anna/Elsa being lauded as the ultimate feminist icons is a little overbearing. There are several ways to write a strong female character.

Yeah it's one thing to be feminist, it's another to put some girls on pedestals because they're not like other girls or whatever. Like I love Wonder Woman but I have a hard time seeing some heroines like Merida as feminist icons. If a movie or show is trying way too hard to be feminist I wouldn't have a problem with it if the people who work on it weren't talking about how their female characters are better than other female characters because of sexist reasons

Like the writers and the actors in the Aladdin remake have been talking trash about Jasmine and how the remake Jasmine would want more than true love. The original Jasmine was progressive af, especially with that iconic quote, "I am not a prize to be won"

I think that's a very narrow definition of feminism. Even old Princesses were strong in their own way. You don't need to be masculine or forever alone in order to be strong or powerful so yes I would categorize many old DPs as feminist movies. But I get your point. They should stop their pseudo-progressive agenda. The so-called equality at the expense of interesting plot. I don't need a billion dollar corporation to tell me what is called a strong woman.

"I don't need a billion dollar corporation to tell me what is called a strong woman." Yes! This so much. Billion dollar corporations have absolutely zero right to try to act like they have moral high ground of any kind!

Well, then. I guess Disney will lose money from me. Because I don't and won't be dictated to.

After nine plus movies featuring females in the Revival Era, Disney has told me what their "new definition of a strong woman is."

I think they're liars.

And I can turn my back on them, withdraw support for their wallet, and walk away.

@disnertobe I fail to see how PATF is the worst in this regard considering in the story Tiana is bashed by other characters (her mom, her friends, Naveen, Mama Odie) for working all the time and she does ultimately learn to have fun and make time for love by the end of the film. It's not the most well written character arc but it did happen.

Tiana's just as preachy about hard work as Elinor is about "what is to be a princess". I'd say PATF, Brave and Frozen are all kinda neck and neck with the whole "meta subversive, anti-Disney" crap.

With Moana it's really just one cringy scene and Tangled isn't really apart of this discussion because it isn't really trying to be subversive or pander to Disney's haters/critics at all.....hence why it's the only revival film that people like.

I think you might be giving Brave's writers a bit too much credit but I can see validity in your interpretation of Merida, even if I kinda doubt that was writers' intentions.

At the very least, I doubt that was the point Brenda Chapman was trying to make, especially considering she didn't write the second half of the film but I guess the writer's intention and the viewer's perception can be different things.

@disnerdtobe Even though I don’t love Frozen as much as I used to I still love the sisters. I just don’t like how fans and even the creators act like they’re better than other princesses because Elsa didn’t have a love interest and Anna punches someone in the face.

I’ve never thought of Brave and Merida the way you just put it, I’ll try to think about that when I watch the movie again

Oh yes ! In the end All the princess are strong and independant only Two princess couldnt save themselve because they were in magical coma.
I just wish disney would stop with their hate on " prince charming" i enjoy aladdin but the fact that the prince was stupid annoy me. They can be feminist without bashing Princes.

I think a large part of the entertainment industry has become so hung up on trying to embed modern messages in their content that they forget to make stuff enjoyable. Which is unfortunate. People haven't loved the same classic Disney movies for over half a century for their "wokeness" or social commentary.

And on the flip side, viewers don't always need to analyze and tear apart and assign a label to everything. Sometimes you just need to shut up and enjoy stuff.

^that’s something I try doing but then of course people on the internet just go off about the ridiculous stuff instead of just enjoying a movie. I used to love Moana until people called her a Mary Sue and stuff and now idk if I even can like her anymore because the negative stuff keeps coming to mind

The 90s movies were better, but I don't necessarily think they should "stop trying to be feminist" altogether.

^this isn’t about Disney not making feminist movies, just movies where they try so hard like Brave

Hence the quotation marks around feminist