Liberal

Chaann94 @bri-marie I never said they shouldn't get help. I just said the government shouldn't touch other people's retirement funds.

bri-marie Can you give some sources proving your government is taking money out of people's retirement funds?

Chaann94 I can't. They're still discussing the specifics so the press still has only fractions of the agreement. But I was in the Hague when the politicians were discussing this.

bri-marie So, this isn't even happening, you don't even have the whole story, and you're complaining about it happening?

Chaann94 ^ It's ABOUT to happen. The contract has already been signed by 40% or so, but there's one party that's about to sign, that would make 54% so that would make the agreement a fact. By the way weren't we discussing the idea of righteous taxes here? Why would we suddenly have to debate over a source of mine?

bri-marie You keep using it as a fact, as if it's already happening (which it's not, and it hasn't even officially been brought in, apparently) . I can't get very much information about Holland's taxes (especially when you get into specifics). The only information I could find about using retirement funds was that it was being talked about. So I asked where you got that information from.

Chaann94 ^ So the fact that people are talking about taking money from retirement funds isn't already worse enough? It actually has to happen before it gets bad? It's like denying a store owner a security system because nothing has been stolen yet. Though I can see where your question was coming from. But I can assure you I'm not lying about having been there and hearing them talk about taking money from retirement funds.

Sappp bri-marie: Our government 'fell', which means we have a government with limited powers at the moment. They made a coalition with opposition parties to make an economic plan. We have elections in september, but already some of the plans of the Kunduz-coalition (that how the coalition that made the plans is called) are being recalled/questioned/changed by the parties involved and the parties that were not involved, because since the government has limited powers, the plans can not be implemented untill after the elections. Nothing is really sure at the moment, but nonetheless the plans have caused a lot of debate and ofcourse because elections are upcoming the politicians are yelling a lot of things, which change day by day. Basically, it is a mess and we won't have more certainty untill september/november. PS: at the moment we have 11 parties in our 'lower chamber' or 'second chamber' so sometimes politics are chaotic :S

Sappp chaan: like I said, our government has limited powers at the moment. They can't make decisions like that untill after the elections.

Chaann94 ^Sappp true that about the politics being chaotic :S. I'm just one month too young to vote btw =S Out of curiosity, what are you going to vote? I'd have voted D'66 because of health care and study finances or maybe VVD. and yeah but that's why I'm so nervous about my parents' life after my dad retires

bri-marie @Chaan: [i]It actually has to happen before it gets bad? [/i] No. What I'm saying is it actually has to happen before you start complaining about the damage it's doing. @Saap:[i]at the moment we have 11 parties in our 'lower chamber' or 'second chamber' so sometimes politics are chaotic :S[/i] I can only imagine *shudders*

Chaann94 @bri-marie Oh so I just have to keep my mouth shut because something hasn't happened yet? So if an axe-murderer walks into my house, I can't call the cops because he hasn't beheaded me yet?

Sappp I have to agree a bit with both of you: on the one hand it has not happened, so there is nothing to be worried about. On the other hand, upcoming changes in laws are important to protest when you disagree with them, since it is harder to change a law that has passed than to persuade politicians to not pass them. Especially, because our elections are coming up, the plans are discussed a lot, which is only natural. People are going to vote for the party with the most beneficial plans for them. And you cannot ignore changes that will effect you untill they are in working: sometimes you need to prepare. For example: one of the plans is that people have to pay 7.50 euro for each day they are admitted in the hospital. If that passes I either have -find an insurance where I can insure that -put money aside so I can pay that when necessary. I recently calculated what that would've cost me after my first kindey-transplant: over 1500 euros :S I really do not know what I am going to vote. I like D66 and I have voted for them in the past, but I am not sure yet. I guess I still have a lot of party-programs to read before elections.

bri-marie [i]Oh so I just have to keep my mouth shut because something hasn't happened yet[/i] That's not what I'm saying, and that's not what you're doing. You're not complaining that the government is [b]thinking[/b] about doing those things. [u]You are complaining about the damage taking away retirement funds has [i]already[/i] done[/u], even though that idea hasn't even passed yet. By all means, complain. Inform people of what's going on. But don't state is as fact when it's not, and don't blame Socialism, when nothing has even happened.

Chaann94 ^ "you are complaining about the damage taking away retirement funds has already done, even though that idea hasn't even passed yet" True, but what if your government says; "we're thinking about it, but what if we raise taxes of lower-class people with 30%?" people would go crazy! and why? Because we know what it will do even if it's not a fact. But they are talking about it, that's a fact. How can I not blame Socialism if all the Socialist parties always come up with ideas like this? (roughly taken, i have no idea about the numbers of these but I know socialist have always wanted middle-class family's to pay)

Chaann94 @Sappp True, I believe you'd have to get some "upgraded" insurance. When my mom was hospitalized for two weeks or so, we got an "upgraded" insurance because our old insurance wouldn't cover all the costs, making it cost over 1000 euro's for the surgery alone(that would be a percentage we had to pay ourselves). I'd normally vote right-wing but right now I'm heading more towards the middle. I'm really scared Holland will have a health care system just as bad as the US :/ I don't want to have to go to Belgium(just a random example) to get health care :/

bri-marie [i]people would go crazy! and why? Because we know what it will do even if it's not a fact. But they are talking about it, that's a fact.[/i] The lower class, literally, cannot pay that much in taxes. [i]Literally[/i]. That's why their lower-class -- because they don't have a lot of money. But, again, being angry when someone asks you to do something you can't is one thing. Being angry at the damage it has caused, when no damaged has been caused is something completely different. You mentioned the store owner asking for protection. Think of it this way: could a store owner have a customer arrested if he didn't shop lift anything? Of course not. This (^) is what you're doing. You're being angry about a customer stealing your merchandise when no merchandise has been stolen.

Chaann94 ^ No, I'm saying a store owner could have a customer arrested for shoplifting if that customer walksa round the store and says; "I'm gonna steal that, i'm gonna steal that oh and I can't forget to steal that".

bri-marie No, shop owners (and police officers) can't arrest someone if they haven't done anything. A person can [i]say[/i] all they want that they are going to steal, but unless they [i]actually[/i] steal, they cannot be arrested.

Sappp chaan: Not trying to be mean or anything, but if you have to upgrade your insurance for two weeks of hospital+surgery, you had a very low insurance to begin with. I have an average insurance with extra dental package and I get ecerything when hospitalized. I pay for things that are legally excluded from insurance . You reallly need to look at the parties in our government and learn what kind of parties they are. The plans of the retirement funds you are talking about are from the Kunduz coalition and these parties are NOT socialist. They are VVD - Conservative liberal, centre right party. CDA - Christian conservative centrism, there are also a centre right party. D66 - Social liberals, they are a centre patry. CU - Christian social democratic, also a centre party. GreenLeft - Green politics and the party that is most left of the Kunduz Coalition, but still they are more social democrats rather than socialists. Again, the only socialist party in our second chamber is the (what a suprise) Socialist Party (SP). They had nothing to do with these plans. Now, they have a good position for the next election so if you really hate socialists that much, I guess you will have a rough time this september, but AGAIN, they had nothing to do with these plans. Socialists had nothing to do with it.

Chaann94 @bri-marie I thought we were just using that as a metaphore but now you're taking it literal? @Sappp no we had an average all-round one but we needed a "aanvullende" insurance becayse hyserectomy's are apparently really expensive =S GreenLeft is definitely socialistic. In 1989 they formed out of 4 radical socialistic parties; CPN, PSP, PPR and the EVP. Also I don't count SP as socialistic. They were a communistic party funded in 1972. They were orientated on China. Now this isn't in my history book, but in 1972, mao zedong was still terrorizing his country. So I see the SP as communists who call themselves socialists to cover it up a bit. The PvdA is also socialist, so the SP isn't the only one. And hmm if these parties really signed onto the Kunduz coalition I should change my vote for in september XD (we also have an election at school "just to see how the school's political orientation is"). I'm gonna vote PVV, at least they were against this coalition XD "We haven't signed anything!" <--- look at the debate it's hilarious, he kept saying that sentence over and over XD.

bri-marie @Chaan: It [i]is[/i] a metaphor. It's comparing how a shop owner can't arrest someone or kick them out of the store unless they've [i]actually[/i] stolen something or done something wrong, to you complaining about damage that hasn't happened. Just because it's a metaphor doesn't mean you can make stuff up to fit what you're trying to say. That defeats to purpose of a metaphor.

Sappp You can tell me PvdA is socialist, but it isn't. It is social democatric. Yes, they are left (centre-left actually), but left =/= socialist. Greenleft was formed from those parties, that does not mean they are still following that course. Again, social but not socialist. SP was Maoist in its early years. Socialist or communist, it does not matter what they were. They are socialists now. If you want to waste a vote, vote PVV. If there is one party I would never vote for it is the PVV. I would sooner vote SGP... Wilders was the one who shrunk back from responsibility at the moment The Netherlands needed a good budget plan. He can talk pretty, but the fact is that we need to make budget cuts and he does not have the balls to do it.

Chaann94 @Sappp True, but if all the parties have the same idea about the economy(or they're divided in about the same amount of groups) I'd rather look at the immigration policy. That should be more strict. True, he has no balls concerning the budget policy but with immigration he has balls enough XD But sorry, Im drifting off. Hmm I just did some research on Greenleft and I clicked on pensions, but before I can say anything I'm gonna need your help if I may ask? :(. Here's the link; http://standpunten.groenlinks.nl/node/53149 With what they're stating, is that how they want the pensions to be or is that already happening?

Sappp This is their view on how it should be, the problems they see with how it is at the moment and the possible solutions. I agree that immigration policy is important: but the economy is the most important thing to talk about in a country. After all, 'money is what makes the world go 'round'. And I don't think every party has the same views on the economy, it's just that at the moment they do not dare to make daring statements because they are afraid to loose votes. I really have to look at the programs soonish.